Co-op game!!

[redshirt]

A few quick questions about the game. What level is everyone? Hanrut is 2nd level. Does he level up with the party or not? Last game I played we decided to split the money the next game, How much did I get or nothing?

Waugh.........must smash something!!!

[Ixos 2: the Sequel]

The people that started late are still 2nd, I think; the rest of us are 3rd. (I think...) We should go with the group for whether or not you level up--we were going to try and keep everybody even, but some are already a level behind, so I don't think it would be too terrible if you were a level behind also. You did miss a game, after all (or was it two?). I'll go with the group, but my opinion is that since it's only one level you should stay behind. If you were a couple levels behind, then I could see giving you enough to be only one behind. Whatever. I'll go with the group.

I do think that there should be some way for the people that are behind to make it up. Y'know, bonus XP of some kind. Not sure how that would work since we take turns DMing. Anybody have ideas?

As for the money, I don't remember that. Somebody else can maybe fill you in.

I too want to play. I'm looking forward to this one especially; Ig is running the game, and he's been throwing out teasers every time I see him. It's got me geeked for the game. ;D

[redshirt]

OK, I'll stay poor and little... ,heh.

On another note, anyone but me used the Beta Character Builder yet?
Looks pretty cool. I even found a couple of mistakes on my Warlord!!
Really looking foreword to the Game Table.

[Ixos 2: the Sequel]

I have not used it. Didn't know it was up. Is it free or do they charge you?

[redshirt]

You have to be an Insider subscriber.

[Ixos 2: the Sequel]

Ahh.

[Gir]

12/13 is fine with me. And if red is only a level behind that's ok... as for money... I'll share my loot... I may be a rogue, but I'm not a tightwad...

[redshirt]

I have a big hammer with a critter's name on it! ;D

[redshirt]

Bet this comes as no suprise to anyone, but Cargill switched up out Saturdays. Looks like im out for the game.



God I hate my job sometimes!!!

[Ixos 2: the Sequel]

Dec 3, 2008 19:31:59 GMT -6 redshirt said:

Bet this comes as no suprise to anyone, but Cargill switched up out Saturdays. Looks like im out for the game.



God I hate my job sometimes!!!

Wow. I am, like, totally surprised.

By the time you can play again, book people are going to be working every fricking day. By the time book people get weekends off again, dead turkey people are going to be working Saturdays again. By the time dead turkey people get weekends off...

[Gir]

maybe all you dead turkey people should get jobs with the book people so you'll have the same work scheduel?? Or.... you could all get office jobs and work mon-fri like me! ;D

[redshirt]

After all these years I wouldn't know how to act if I had a regular schedule!!

[Gir]

act like a monkey who wears a tuxedo and carries a hula-hoop

[Ixos 2: the Sequel]

Dec 5, 2008 16:20:15 GMT -6 Gir said:

act like a monkey who wears a tuxedo and carries a hula-hoop

Hey, bonus! That's already how you act, redshirt!

[Ixos 2: the Sequel]

I assume that all the co-op game is still on for Saturday? For all the cool kids, anyway.

[Gir]

yeah... it's on for us cool kids, but we'll let you come and play too Ixos....

[Xombie]

Me and rachel were planing on having a snack day for the game...we are gonna make rotel and peanutbutter pie. So bring whatever you want (except rotel and peanutbutter pie) ;D

[Ixos 2: the Sequel]

Well, I was gonna make some of my dip, but I'm prolly not cool enough. And there'll be rotel, so maybe I'll think of something else.

(I'll probably just make dip, actually. Been awhile, and if it don't get eat cause of rotel, that's just more for me!)

[Gir]

well... if you bring dip we'll declare you "cool" ;D

[Ixos 2: the Sequel]

Dec 10, 2008 16:27:55 GMT -6 Gir said:

well... if you bring dip we'll declare you "cool" ;D

[Gir]

now don't make me rethink that...

[Ixos 2: the Sequel]

Good game tonight, ig. You said you thought it was a failed experiment, but I wouldn't go that far. It was an experiment, but it did prove something--4e is a whole different animal than 3x. What you were trying to do was use the game's engine in a way it wasn't designed to be used, sort of like (to use a metaphor you will really understand, and at the risk of alienating the rest of those who will read this) trying to combo out in a Pox deck. Pox (which really, in Magic terms doesn't have an engine per se) isn't designed to combo out, it's designed to deny your opponent the ability to win the game (and really fuck with his head ). 4e is designed to be a group game centered around teams fighting against groups of baddies. The monsters are designed to be defeated by using teamwork. Having all of us split up sort of nerfed us. Okay, it seriously nerfed us.

Now, having said all that, I thought it was a cool idea. Splitting us all up made me really think about, "oh crap, how am I gonna get out of this?" I was concerned for the wellbeing of my character, and I think I was even more focused than usual on strategy and tactics (which is strange given that that aspect of the game was more "limited" with all of us separated). And, dang it, it was just a cool idea! Running around in a random maze with a bunch of bad guys running around it there too--I like it. (But just this once...)

You also seemed to have a good command of the rules. You weren't tentative when you were running the critters, and you knew what was going on at all times. You didn't have many rules questions, and the ones you did have didn't seem obvious. Good job with the rules, and good job with your "DM presence" (I just coined a term!); you kept control of the game as much as any of us have...

Talking to everybody now, there were more complaints about combat taking too long, and granted, this adventure was basically one encounter and it did take the whole night. But, I would like to say a couple things about the length of combat.

One--There are a LOT of distractions when we play the co-op game. I mean a LOT. And by that I mean a metric crap ton. We have a toddler, another small child, many many phone calls (usually), food, smoke breaks, and the general BSing that comes from friends who really like each other but don't get to see each other all that often. About the only thing there that I think we could easily solve is the smoke breaks. And I think that's really all I want to say about distractions.

Two--It's still a new system that we aren't all that familiar with. People are confused by the new terminology; we're using minis now so we all spend more time trying to maximize our turns, and we've stressed the three different actions that you get on your turn, so we all want to use those actions to the fullest. The idea of powers instead of full attacks is still strange, and so we tend to take longer deciding what power to use and exactly how to use it (or how it is used).

And, dammit, it's a new system and it just doesn't feel right. It's still sort of uncomfortable, like a new pair of shoes before you break em in, or a new car before you get used to it.

Now, unlike the distractions, there are some things we can do about this. We all have a Player's Handbook; we should read them. And I don't mean word-for-word, cover-to-cover. Even I'm not that anal. But, seriously, read the "important" parts of the book. Like your class, your race, your feats, your skills, your equipment, the combat chapter (yeah, it's kinda boring, but at least skim it--or better yet, read it in conjunction with reading about your class; you might be surprised what cool stuff you'll learn {and unfortunately we never had the opportunity to try this stuff out}]). Post-Its are good for bookmarking important pages, like the one with conditions, the one with attack modifiers, and that kind of thing. Also, there are cheat sheets online. Google 4e DM screen (or something like that); it wouldn't be a bad resource to have handy at the game, even if you aren't the DM.

I understand that not everybody treats DnD like a hobby, but I believe that a little investment of time reading the books will make the game much more fun for everybody. I'm not saying that we should all become experts or anything, but a greater understanding of the rules would make everything run much smoother. And I include myself in that! Since you all have made me the "rules guy" (a dubious honor which I have reluctantly yet humbly accepted)(I guess), I feel that I need to be the most knowledgeable. So I'll try to do a better job. That doesn't mean that I want to tell you how to use your powers; that means that I should be able to answer questions about how your powers work in obscure situations (probably after looking in the book, not finding the answer, going "hell, I don't know" and just best-guessing it... )

Also, the official 4e character sheet is a steaming pile of elephant crap. If I had the means to print it onto toilet paper, I would, and that is the only toilet paper I would ever use, no matter the cost. It is an affront to God, and whoever came up with it should be anally raped by 1001 camels and their fleas. (In other words, I don't care for it.) If anybody expresses interest in alternate character sheets, let me know and I will either post some links or print sheets out for you. (I won't waste my time if nobody cares, though.) (Printing yours as I write, RMS! You thought I'd forget, didn't you?)

Okay, there's more I could say, but this is already too long. And preachy. Sorry about that. I like to write, and I had shit to say. So...uh...

Good game ig!

[ig2000]

Thanks Ixos, I’m glad you liked the game.

I did use the term “failed experiment” and you are right, it is not a failure if we learned something from it. So what did I learn? In older editions it was harder to split up the group and keep track of everything that was going on. This new version forces you to use mini’s. I was thinking that with us using mini’s it would be easier to split the group up and know what the hell was going on. It was, unfortunately 4E is set up for team cooperation way more then I realized. Lesson learned. I do still think it can be done in moderation, in smaller battles or in shorter time frames. Not that I’m going to do it again!

The second thing I wanted to do with this adventure is get well needed practice and experience at DMing. This was a success, I feel a lot more confident and learned a bunch. Forth coming games from me should be much better.

I would like every ones opinion on this last one. I feel like we don’t roleplay enough. I was trying to bring that back with this session. I know battles are a big part of it but I think story should be just as big. If there is no story we should just be playing mini’s. Let me ask a few questions. Who were the adventurers that lived in the house before us? What were there names, classes, races? What happen to them? Had you asked these questions would you have gotten the same answers from different people? What were the “goods” you delivered to Harkenwold? What did you bring back? What was Harry Amokdell doing while everyone else was in the Rusty Monster? Do we have enemies and/or allies? May-be I’m asking for too much here but can the big-story-arc-campaign even be done with a co-op game? I missed most of the 3E co-op game so I don’t know if you guys ever figured that out or not. Let me know what you think.

[Ixos 2: the Sequel]

I would like every ones opinion on this last one. I feel like we don’t roleplay enough. I was trying to bring that back with this session. I know battles are a big part of it but I think story should be just as big.

I agree that we don't roleplay enough. Now, having said that, it's also important to remember that enough RP for one person might be zero, while for another it might be entire sessions of no combat. So it's a fine line to walk. The trick is to have enough of what everybody likes without so much that everybody else gets annoyed. I've been in games where some of us are talking with the barkeep, a couple other people are RPing among themselves, and one guy gets so bored with it all that he starts robbing/raping/attacking/whathaveyou townsfolk.

It also depends on the DM. Some of us are comfortable with it, some people are uncomfortable with it, some get "stage fright," and so on. I like to RP the NPCs, usually, but sometimes I have a hard time making stuff up on the fly (which didn't used to be a problem for me...). I've found that I RP a lot more at my Friday games: those guys seem to appreciate the RP quite a bit, and after a couple beers I'm not too bashful to play the horny old widow at the grand ball, or the little girl with the crush on the barbarian.

I've also noticed that we tend to RP our characters in a vacuum of sorts. I am how I am and I will be that way despite my surroundings or situation, and I will either make no relationships or, if I do, I will ignore them. I will not learn from past experiences, and I will often use my class, race, and/or alignment as an excuse for my behavior, especially when said behavior is annoying to the rest of the players. (And we all know we've all done it!)

It should be noted that you can have story without the RP. Just throwing that out there.

Let me ask a few questions....

So, do you know the answers to these questions and are just wanting to see if we were paying attention? Or do you want us to answer them? You're right, we prolly should have asked those questions. However, in our defense, you seemed like you made up the names of the caravan dudes on the spot, which sort of told us (me, at least) that you were running the game much like the rest of us have gotten used to doing--skip over the boring parts to get to the action (ie, the stabbing of faces and the looting of bodies). And I apologize for that since it now seems that you were not doing that. (In my defense, I was having a nice conversation with the barkeep when...we got sidetracked somehow...?)

And, actually, looking at my notes, I did write down: "band of adventurers used to live there--what happened to them?" So I was thinking about that, anyway. And I seem to remember asking about the goods, the merchant, and so on. The answer was various goods from the craftsmen/farmers of Fallcrest--the normal stuff they produce, whatever it may happen to be, to be traded in turn for similar goods from similar craftsmen/farmers of Harkenwold. That was the impression I got, anyway.

May-be I’m asking for too much here but can the big-story-arc-campaign even be done with a co-op game?

You might be asking for too much. In the 3e game it seemed as if nobody wanted to step on anybody else's toes, and so didn't really try to expand on what others had introduced. Either that, or when it was a different person's turn to DM, they decided to introduce a new idea. (Although, now that I think about it, we did use other's ideas occasionally.) I think the co-op game works better as a serial type of thing, where the heroes have different adventures, but there can be recurring characters/plots, and if you miss an episode, you still know what's going on: less Heroes/Lost, more X-Files/Firefly. Course, that's not to say it can't be done.

The second thing I wanted to do with this adventure is get well needed practice and experience at DMing. This was a success, I feel a lot more confident and learned a bunch. Forth coming games from me should be much better.

Sounds like you're looking forward to it. I wholeheartedly approve! You did a good job, and it sounds like you're not looking at DMing as a chore. Having read that, I'm now looking forward to playing your next game.

It's also nice to see somebody besides me being longwinded. Heh.

[Gir]

I still HATE 4E.... that's not likely to change....

That said... it was an interesting experiment and a cool idea... would have worked better in 3rd probably... (maybe I just think that cause I was a fighter)... and I got frustrated by losing my ability to surge/heal (whatever) after one time... that sucks major ass.... but it was a flaw in the game design... since it was ONE encounter in a game meant to have multiple encounters with time to rest and heal... anywho... I only have one other thing to say... in regards to the cleric getting all pissy about me looting bodies... first off, how could he even see me or what I was doing when he was engaged in combat? second you all had that battle covered, my character didn't see the need to step in... so I will say this, I am a ROGUE... I see a bodie on the floor I will loot it as long as I am not in immediate danger (btw I did my share of killing and getting seriously hurt too)

ok... glad to get that off my chest... now then, we'd have known what we were transporting if people didn't get all cheesed off every time I want to riffle through things... just because I look does not mean I take...

[Ixos 2: the Sequel]

You sound upset, and I'm going to try not to upset you more, and at the same try not to be condescending or patronizing! Can I do it?!

I have some questions, though.

and I got frustrated by losing my ability to surge/heal (whatever) after one time...

So, you say you hate 4e, and I can accept that, BUT you then go on to complain about how you can only heal yourself once. You didn't have that ability AT ALL in 3x. The only way a fighter (or rogue) could heal themself in 3x was with a potion. In 4e, each character can heal him/her self once per encounter. In 3x, if that fighter (or rogue) didn't have easy access to a cleric--such as if the cleric were separated from the rest of the party and was fighting for his life inside a random teleport maze--that fighter (or rogue) was pretty much shit outta luck.

Now, maybe I'm reading your argument incorrectly, but it sounds as if you're saying that 3x was better because in 4e you can only second wind once per encounter. This is an ability that didn't exist at all in 3x, so I find it a bit silly use that as a reason to say that 3x is better. (If that's not what you're saying, then please correct me. Asshole Brother argued that exact same thing--that 4e sucked since you can only second wind once per encounter. So maybe that's why I think you're saying the same thing, but like I said, tell me if I'm wrong.)

I really don't have the energy to touch the rest of that paragraph. I don't want to tell you how to play your character, but... And I'll leave it at that. (Except to say, see one of my above longwinded rants.)

However, this I will comment on:

now then, we'd have known what we were transporting if people didn't get all cheesed off every time I want to riffle through things... just because I look does not mean I take...

Okay, I know this, Meriele knows this (but still doesn't really like Sariel snooping in her underwear drawer, thus the threats of eternal damnation), and you know this. But not everybody knows this. So, put yourself in Sariel's shoes. She's a snoop (not a thief, so she claims), and so has probably been snooping her whole life. She's thus had lots of practice, and is therefore very good at it. But not so good that she's never been caught. So she has learned to use discretion whilst snooping. Don't snoop while everybody is looking. Don't advertise the fact that you're going to snoop, and above all don't get caught!!

What I would recommend is that you let everybody know beforehand (like in this message board! convenient, huh?) that you're a snoop, that you're going to snoop, but that you won't steal. (And you won't steal, right? Right?! )

Actually, this could all lead to some good RP (ay, ig, ay <elbow><elbow><wink>). We all know you're a snoop, we don't like it (that is, the characters don't like it), but we also know that you're not going to stop. How clever can you be? We can't be everywhere and watching you at all times, can we? Or can we...?

Hope I didn't piss you off, Gir!

[Ixos 2: the Sequel]

I really don't have the energy to touch the rest of that paragraph. I don't want to tell you how to play your character, but... And I'll leave it at that.

Okay, maybe I won't leave it at that. Just a word of advice here, there's nothing wrong with looting bodies, but I would recommend to not loot while the rest of the party is in the middle of the fight. Whether the battle is under control or not, it's just not a good idea to ignore the danger that everybody is in and perform what could be perceived as an overtly greedy action. (Especially when you were set up for a sweet sneak attack--that's what bugged me most!) It's just not good adventurer etiquette. After all, we are heroes and we do need to keep up appearances.

It's happened many times before, so I'm really speaking to everybody. I've been in several games where one person deems themselves ineffective (for whatever reason--possibly out of boredom) and decides to do something irrelevant to the battle. Like check out the treasure chest, or examine the altar, or read the runes, or whatever. There's always some way to contribute--aid another, provide a flank on total defense, throw rocks or hurl insults (more of that elusive RP right there), something. I've been guilty of getting frustrated and ignoring the battle before, myself, so it's not like I'm trying to pick on anybody.

Just my 2cp.

[Gir]

I'm saying I hate 4E... not just about the surge/heal thing... in 3rd I always had at least one heal potion on me that gave me back more hit points that I can get back with one puney little surge... thankfully Ig saw fit to give us all some potions at the end of the game (why had we not gotten any before???) but I also hate 4E because it's too complicated... it takes far too long to get through a battle... and I think I'm missing the time we had for some RP in 3rd... I don't like the character sheets... they are confusing... 3rd was just a little more simple, easy to navigate... and battles didn't last 3 hours!!!

What I would recommend is that you let everybody know beforehand (like in this message board! convenient, huh?) that you're a snoop, that you're going to snoop, but that you won't steal. (And you won't steal, right? Right?!

this is why we need more RP... so our characters have a chance to get to know each other without me simply telling you my motives... that's so ... I don't know... ungamelike? I don't want any of the others to just state "I'm this and I do that becuase" I want to learn it through your characters actions... like I shouldn't need to explain that "hey, I just entered a room and there's a body right there just begging to be looted... (it's not like I had to go across the room and pass by the battle it was right there where I was standing) after which I notice to battle across the room that looks like it's taken care of... my curiosity wins out more often than not, if baddy was still alive after I looted I'd jump in the fray despite my own serious injuries" if they had time to get to know my character and her motives it would make more sense... so some still might not like it, but maybe I don't like what other people do...
and the only other thing I can think to say is that when I announce I'm going to snoop/loot it's for the DM's benefit only so he can determine if I should roll and possibly be caught or otherwise stopped... I don't expect to get away with it all the time... and sometimes I might "borrow" something if it's interesting enough... but if you see me with your item or notice an item missing... I'll give it back (which should be learned through RP if there ever is any)... *sigh*... I miss my fighter.... I miss just beating the crap out of creatures in an efficient manner...

[Gir]

PS:

You didn't piss me off Ixos... instruction and constructive critisism is a good thing to help us (me) learn... but after that kissy face xombie might have a few words... hehe or not... you can never tell with him...

[Ixos 2: the Sequel]

this is why we need more RP... so our characters have a chance to get to know each other without me simply telling you my motives... that's so ... I don't know... ungamelike?

True, true, true. But (there always is one, isn't there?), in certain instances your actions are going to be interpreted in a certain way ("eladrin bitch is stealing from me!"), even though the intent is entirely different ("no, asshole, I'm just looking, chill"). (And looting during the middle of a battle is still pretty lame, imo.)

Like I mentioned before, not everybody is in the game for the same thing. So some people might be interested in immersive RP, and others might be only interested in the tactical aspects of combat, and/or killing it and taking it's stuff. Nothing wrong with that. Also, nothing wrong with heavy RP. But finding the right amounts of RP vs asskickin is a trick, and we all need to try to find that balance.

so some still might not like it, but maybe I don't like what other people do...

Nothing wrong with that. Interparty conflict is fun (and can lead to some good RP, actually.)...right up until the point where weapons are drawn. It's a fantasy game, and nobody wants to admit that their fantasy character has a little dick (or whatever the female equivalent would be), so players tend not to back down. (That's why I don't allow evil alignments, and subsequently chaotic neutral--but alignment is just the biggest cause, not the only one.) PC vs PC fights aren't fun, and lead to anger and hurt feelings irl. So keep it in game, please!

I miss just beating the crap out of creatures in an efficient manner...

Eh, your rogue is just a different animal. It takes a little more effort to pwn, but that just means the pwnage is that much more satisfying. Also remember that when we quit 3x, your fighter was damn near epic; Sariel is just 3rd lvl. That's quite a difference!

instruction and constructive critisism is a good thing to help us (me) learn...

I just hope I don't sound preachy!

xombie might have a few words...

Swords or pistols, sir?