Post by Ixos 2: the Sequel on Jul 29, 2007 4:07:35 GMT -6
A couple weeks ago, redshirt came up with an idea about having some kind of minis campaign league. The idea was that you would start with a team and play it throughout the league, and that the team would grow and get stronger as the league/campaign progressed. We brainstormed a little, and I've discussed it with ig and rmsgamer. Everybody seems to like the idea, so I'm starting this thread so that maybe we can all come up with ideas and get some kind of structure for the thing.
The idea is that there is a continent full of different terrains or territories. Each of these territories is assigned it's own skirmish map (so there will be a Drow Outpost territory, a Frostfell Rift territory, and so on, one for each skirmish map, and some with homemade maps, maybe even a random map). Somewhere on this continent is the Colossal Red Dragon; the goal is for one player to build his army up from nothing and eventually take on the CRD and kill it, claiming it's hoard and winning the game (the hoard has some treasure in it that will let that player take over the world, like the Crown of Command or something).
Each player will have to claim these territories, taking them from other players. To challenge the CRD, you have to have a path from the coast to the dragon's lair, a supply line from your nation (which lies across the sea--no, you can't attack somebodies home kingdom). That is the only requirement to attack the CRD--just have an intact supply line. Of course, you'll probably want a decent army before you try it. We will have a big map of the continent, and a way to mark who controls each territory. A pegboard with little flags on pins would look cool, but a dry-erase board would probably be easier.
To start, each player will have one booster and a commander that costs 50 or less (any commander you own). You build a 100pt team from this initial pool, and then begin taking territories. You can earn points that can be used in various ways. (I kind of think of these points as cash that you can use to buy various things--new figs, a higher max point total for your team, allies, and so on.)
And I think that those are the only ideas that we are set on. We've brainstormed lots more, though, some good and some not as good.
When the game starts, are any of the territories already controlled? I think that you should get to pick one territory to start, but what then? Do you just move into another territory and claim it if no other player controls it, or do you maybe have to fight a critter (rms suggested that maybe every territory had a critter in it, like the various large dragons, and even the aspects and Balor and Pit Fiend. I kind of like this idea, and kind of don't. I think somebody suggested this idea earlier--in fact, I think it was me!--and I didn't like it then. But I think my idea was more of an army being there, and you would have to beat them, like a tribe of goblins or something. I do like the idea that you would have to do something to get the territory, and beating a single critter shouldn't take long. Until you get up to the epic ones like Tiamat and Bahamut.). What do you all think?
Another question is how do you add to your team. Originally, we were thinking that you can just buy figs from your own collection. We all have pretty stout collections, but if we're starting with a booster, why not continue with that. It would be a lot cheaper using minis you already own, of course. Booster draft would be fun, but it would be much harder to decide how to use points if we draft. We could all go in on a few cases, open em up, dump em in a bin and buy out of that, but that would cost lots of money, and people wouldn't be guaranteed that they would get their money's worth (if you don't earn points, you don't get minis). I think the most fair way is to just build from your own collection. We would have to keep track of what is in each individual pool, of course (not only to make sure nobody is cheating, but so that we all know what we're up against).
Since it isn't sanctioned, anything goes. You can use a Treant on your 100pt team. You can use Nightwalker on your 400pt team. You can have Tordek and Ultroloth on the same team. You can field a different team every time you battle. The only thing you can't do is have any of the Icons on your team (sorry Tim...). Since the same rules apply to everybody, it will be fair, and since the goal is to kill the Colossal Red, we'll need the power!
Points should be awarded for just about everything, and should be used for just about everything. You shouldn't have to spend points to attack a territory, but you would have to attack one that is adjacent to an area you control. Of course, you could spend points to bribe somebody into letting you cross their territory to get at one that isn't adjacent to you... We haven't talked about points much in our brainstorming sessions, except that they will be very important. So, okay, I'll just throw out some numbers:
You get points equal to 50% of whatever you defeat.
You can spend points equal to a fig's cost to add it to your pool.
You can spend points equal to double what you want to add to your max team limit (going from 100pt team to 125pt team would cost you 50 points, for example).
If you attack a territory and win the skirmish, you get it, and points equal to 50% of the point total of the army you defeated.
If you defend a territory from attack, you keep the territory, win points equal to 50% of the point total of the army you defeated, and capture the enemy commander (your choice if there are more than one). You can ransom this commander back to it's owner; the owner pays you points from his bank equal to the commander's point cost. Or should it maybe be 50% of the cost? Or should it change depending on how long he's been captive? Should the commander get a chance to escape (like DC 20, he gets to add his level and com rating to the roll)? Should the DC change depending on how long the commander has been captive? How about if somebody else takes that territory; should the commander automatically escape?
How about diplomacy? I like the idea of diplomacy, as I think that it would help players that are behind in power catch up a little. Or maybe keep very powerful players in check. Maybe something like, I'll give you some points if you let me use some of your dudes. Should this allow a player to exceed the warband point limit (like adding guys to his team that is already maxed out on points)?
[At first we thought, well, just have multiple players gang up on the powerful guy, but we never found a way to make multi-player work that we liked. But buying reinforcements from allies seems like it would help weaker players catch up and help take down the powerful guys. I don't think we should assign hard numbers to this; let diplomacy rule!]
Hmm, that brings up another interesting question: should a player be allowed to exceed his warband limit for just one skirmish? If rms is attacking my turf with his 700pt band, and my limit is only 500, can I spend points from my bank for emergency reinforcements? What kind of cost should that be? I can see it needing to be high (like making each fig you want to add cost 2x it's point cost) to discourage this kind of "blow your wad" mentality. I can also see the need to make it kind of low (like half the additional figs' cost) because I like the idea of an e-button, and it adds another strategic dimension. Perhaps different costs depending on if you're attacking or defending? Nah. It should be the same, I think. I would also say that you can't use this rule if you're taking on an Icon. What do you all think?
We've been trying to come up with a way to keep it fair and fun for players who can't show up to every session. I know you're out there, don't try to deny it! They should be behind for not showing up, but not so far behind that they don't have a chance. ig suggested a rule that you can only attack each player once, and if that player isn't present to defend his turf, you get it. I like that. Of course, if you miss several sessions, you're going to find yourself with no territories at all! (And if you miss that many sessions, I'm sorry, but you just don't care about the league. Or am I being an asshole?) Emergencies happen, though, so there should be a way for a player to catch up on points. Maybe he could sell some of his minis for points? Either to other players or "foreign investors." A player can buy a mini for whatever he wants (note that he won't actually own the mini, but he can just use it in the league), and the foreign investors will pay...what? Half the fig's point cost? Double? Should there be a mercy rule? After all, it's a dice game, and luck is often bad. If a player gets so far behind on points that he just can't compete, should he just get points for free? (Personal experience from a Magic league--we played for ante, and one guy just kept anteing land. He lost his first couple games, and then kept anteing land. His deck became unplayable really quick. He showed up to every session--we played at his house!--but just couldn't keep up with the rest of us due to some terrible luck.)
I know that I would be very frustrated if I had one bad session where I never won a game, and then couldn't make it to the next session. My team would be really far behind everybody else, and it's no fun if you can't even put up a fighting chance. But it would also piss me off if somebody never showed up, and then we let him magically catch up with everybody else who's been playing every session and slogging through the opposition. I don't know, what do you all think? Should we just play it by ear?
How should the map be laid out? Should it be a big round continent with the Red's lair in the center, or should there be an isthmus that connects the Red's lair to the bigger continent? We had discussed using the other Icon dragons (and Orcus next year when he comes out); should it be set up so that a player has to defeat one of those to be able to take on the Red, or should they be optional? Should there be a nice reward for defeating an Icon, or is 250pts in one fell swoop enough of a reward? If there is an additional reward, what should it be? Something like a vorpal sword for one guy in your band? Perhaps a spellbook that gives one of your casters a nice spell? Maybe an AC bonus for the entire team, or perhaps a plus to one of your commanders command rating? If the Icons are optional, and they give you an additional reward from their hoard for beating them, I think that you wouldn't get the territory, and that other players should be able to take them on. (Any one player can beat each Icon only once, though.) Perhaps a random reward when you loot the hoard? What do you think?
When buying an epic fig, should you have to pay full price if you already have the non-epic version? If I have a Horned Devil, which I already paid 83 points for, should I have to pay 247 for the epic version, or can I just pay the difference to upgrade? (The difference is 164.) If I only have to pay the difference to upgrade, can I still use the non-epic version, or is he now upgraded to epic only? And if he would be upgraded to epic only, do I have the option of spending the full 247 to get the epic version and still have the non-epic version (in case I want to play both epic and non-epic on a team)? Hey, it could come up...I'm just brainstorming here...stop laughing!!
Should there be a reward for the player who finally defeats the Red and wins the league? Maybe everybody could pitch in on a booster and the winner gets that? Or maybe we pitch in on a nice single and all sign the card when it's over? Could that single be an Icon? Maybe we all ante a mini (even a common) and sign them for the prize. Again, just brainstorming.
I know I forgot a lot of things we talked about, but I just thought it would be a good idea to get a thread started so we could all discuss this idea and get it going. I really like the idea, and want to get some details hammered out so we can start playing! I'm already thinking about my starting commander and what minis I want to buy! So give some feedback and let's get this league going!
(Long post with big blocks of text, I know, but this time I'm not sorry, dammit! Let's kill us a Colossal Red!!)
The idea is that there is a continent full of different terrains or territories. Each of these territories is assigned it's own skirmish map (so there will be a Drow Outpost territory, a Frostfell Rift territory, and so on, one for each skirmish map, and some with homemade maps, maybe even a random map). Somewhere on this continent is the Colossal Red Dragon; the goal is for one player to build his army up from nothing and eventually take on the CRD and kill it, claiming it's hoard and winning the game (the hoard has some treasure in it that will let that player take over the world, like the Crown of Command or something).
Each player will have to claim these territories, taking them from other players. To challenge the CRD, you have to have a path from the coast to the dragon's lair, a supply line from your nation (which lies across the sea--no, you can't attack somebodies home kingdom). That is the only requirement to attack the CRD--just have an intact supply line. Of course, you'll probably want a decent army before you try it. We will have a big map of the continent, and a way to mark who controls each territory. A pegboard with little flags on pins would look cool, but a dry-erase board would probably be easier.
To start, each player will have one booster and a commander that costs 50 or less (any commander you own). You build a 100pt team from this initial pool, and then begin taking territories. You can earn points that can be used in various ways. (I kind of think of these points as cash that you can use to buy various things--new figs, a higher max point total for your team, allies, and so on.)
And I think that those are the only ideas that we are set on. We've brainstormed lots more, though, some good and some not as good.
When the game starts, are any of the territories already controlled? I think that you should get to pick one territory to start, but what then? Do you just move into another territory and claim it if no other player controls it, or do you maybe have to fight a critter (rms suggested that maybe every territory had a critter in it, like the various large dragons, and even the aspects and Balor and Pit Fiend. I kind of like this idea, and kind of don't. I think somebody suggested this idea earlier--in fact, I think it was me!--and I didn't like it then. But I think my idea was more of an army being there, and you would have to beat them, like a tribe of goblins or something. I do like the idea that you would have to do something to get the territory, and beating a single critter shouldn't take long. Until you get up to the epic ones like Tiamat and Bahamut.). What do you all think?
Another question is how do you add to your team. Originally, we were thinking that you can just buy figs from your own collection. We all have pretty stout collections, but if we're starting with a booster, why not continue with that. It would be a lot cheaper using minis you already own, of course. Booster draft would be fun, but it would be much harder to decide how to use points if we draft. We could all go in on a few cases, open em up, dump em in a bin and buy out of that, but that would cost lots of money, and people wouldn't be guaranteed that they would get their money's worth (if you don't earn points, you don't get minis). I think the most fair way is to just build from your own collection. We would have to keep track of what is in each individual pool, of course (not only to make sure nobody is cheating, but so that we all know what we're up against).
Since it isn't sanctioned, anything goes. You can use a Treant on your 100pt team. You can use Nightwalker on your 400pt team. You can have Tordek and Ultroloth on the same team. You can field a different team every time you battle. The only thing you can't do is have any of the Icons on your team (sorry Tim...). Since the same rules apply to everybody, it will be fair, and since the goal is to kill the Colossal Red, we'll need the power!
Points should be awarded for just about everything, and should be used for just about everything. You shouldn't have to spend points to attack a territory, but you would have to attack one that is adjacent to an area you control. Of course, you could spend points to bribe somebody into letting you cross their territory to get at one that isn't adjacent to you... We haven't talked about points much in our brainstorming sessions, except that they will be very important. So, okay, I'll just throw out some numbers:
You get points equal to 50% of whatever you defeat.
You can spend points equal to a fig's cost to add it to your pool.
You can spend points equal to double what you want to add to your max team limit (going from 100pt team to 125pt team would cost you 50 points, for example).
If you attack a territory and win the skirmish, you get it, and points equal to 50% of the point total of the army you defeated.
If you defend a territory from attack, you keep the territory, win points equal to 50% of the point total of the army you defeated, and capture the enemy commander (your choice if there are more than one). You can ransom this commander back to it's owner; the owner pays you points from his bank equal to the commander's point cost. Or should it maybe be 50% of the cost? Or should it change depending on how long he's been captive? Should the commander get a chance to escape (like DC 20, he gets to add his level and com rating to the roll)? Should the DC change depending on how long the commander has been captive? How about if somebody else takes that territory; should the commander automatically escape?
How about diplomacy? I like the idea of diplomacy, as I think that it would help players that are behind in power catch up a little. Or maybe keep very powerful players in check. Maybe something like, I'll give you some points if you let me use some of your dudes. Should this allow a player to exceed the warband point limit (like adding guys to his team that is already maxed out on points)?
[At first we thought, well, just have multiple players gang up on the powerful guy, but we never found a way to make multi-player work that we liked. But buying reinforcements from allies seems like it would help weaker players catch up and help take down the powerful guys. I don't think we should assign hard numbers to this; let diplomacy rule!]
Hmm, that brings up another interesting question: should a player be allowed to exceed his warband limit for just one skirmish? If rms is attacking my turf with his 700pt band, and my limit is only 500, can I spend points from my bank for emergency reinforcements? What kind of cost should that be? I can see it needing to be high (like making each fig you want to add cost 2x it's point cost) to discourage this kind of "blow your wad" mentality. I can also see the need to make it kind of low (like half the additional figs' cost) because I like the idea of an e-button, and it adds another strategic dimension. Perhaps different costs depending on if you're attacking or defending? Nah. It should be the same, I think. I would also say that you can't use this rule if you're taking on an Icon. What do you all think?
We've been trying to come up with a way to keep it fair and fun for players who can't show up to every session. I know you're out there, don't try to deny it! They should be behind for not showing up, but not so far behind that they don't have a chance. ig suggested a rule that you can only attack each player once, and if that player isn't present to defend his turf, you get it. I like that. Of course, if you miss several sessions, you're going to find yourself with no territories at all! (And if you miss that many sessions, I'm sorry, but you just don't care about the league. Or am I being an asshole?) Emergencies happen, though, so there should be a way for a player to catch up on points. Maybe he could sell some of his minis for points? Either to other players or "foreign investors." A player can buy a mini for whatever he wants (note that he won't actually own the mini, but he can just use it in the league), and the foreign investors will pay...what? Half the fig's point cost? Double? Should there be a mercy rule? After all, it's a dice game, and luck is often bad. If a player gets so far behind on points that he just can't compete, should he just get points for free? (Personal experience from a Magic league--we played for ante, and one guy just kept anteing land. He lost his first couple games, and then kept anteing land. His deck became unplayable really quick. He showed up to every session--we played at his house!--but just couldn't keep up with the rest of us due to some terrible luck.)
I know that I would be very frustrated if I had one bad session where I never won a game, and then couldn't make it to the next session. My team would be really far behind everybody else, and it's no fun if you can't even put up a fighting chance. But it would also piss me off if somebody never showed up, and then we let him magically catch up with everybody else who's been playing every session and slogging through the opposition. I don't know, what do you all think? Should we just play it by ear?
How should the map be laid out? Should it be a big round continent with the Red's lair in the center, or should there be an isthmus that connects the Red's lair to the bigger continent? We had discussed using the other Icon dragons (and Orcus next year when he comes out); should it be set up so that a player has to defeat one of those to be able to take on the Red, or should they be optional? Should there be a nice reward for defeating an Icon, or is 250pts in one fell swoop enough of a reward? If there is an additional reward, what should it be? Something like a vorpal sword for one guy in your band? Perhaps a spellbook that gives one of your casters a nice spell? Maybe an AC bonus for the entire team, or perhaps a plus to one of your commanders command rating? If the Icons are optional, and they give you an additional reward from their hoard for beating them, I think that you wouldn't get the territory, and that other players should be able to take them on. (Any one player can beat each Icon only once, though.) Perhaps a random reward when you loot the hoard? What do you think?
When buying an epic fig, should you have to pay full price if you already have the non-epic version? If I have a Horned Devil, which I already paid 83 points for, should I have to pay 247 for the epic version, or can I just pay the difference to upgrade? (The difference is 164.) If I only have to pay the difference to upgrade, can I still use the non-epic version, or is he now upgraded to epic only? And if he would be upgraded to epic only, do I have the option of spending the full 247 to get the epic version and still have the non-epic version (in case I want to play both epic and non-epic on a team)? Hey, it could come up...I'm just brainstorming here...stop laughing!!
Should there be a reward for the player who finally defeats the Red and wins the league? Maybe everybody could pitch in on a booster and the winner gets that? Or maybe we pitch in on a nice single and all sign the card when it's over? Could that single be an Icon? Maybe we all ante a mini (even a common) and sign them for the prize. Again, just brainstorming.
I know I forgot a lot of things we talked about, but I just thought it would be a good idea to get a thread started so we could all discuss this idea and get it going. I really like the idea, and want to get some details hammered out so we can start playing! I'm already thinking about my starting commander and what minis I want to buy! So give some feedback and let's get this league going!
(Long post with big blocks of text, I know, but this time I'm not sorry, dammit! Let's kill us a Colossal Red!!)
--I think that lack of interest will kill it. It's a good idea and sounds fun, but it seems like nobody really wants to put the time into organizing/developing it. If I'm right, oh well, it was fun brainstorming ideas, and if I'm wrong, let's get going with some more ideas!"